join me next with. hungry for the full sleep we've got it for. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers. in india all these available in the movie the joys the hotels the home of the lights the greeks we go to the grand imperial truly the taj was the coolest coromandel you can go with hotel closely to see dodi to go and. read this and the colonel was hotel to retreat. hello it's ten eleven thirty pm friday night the twenty second of july thanks for being with us here on r t this is the top story in norway suffers double terror

attacks a huge blast hits several buildings including the prime minister's headquarters it has killed seven pm though is said to be safe unconfirmed reports say the terror group to help was the global jihad claimed responsibility in response to the country's involvement in afghanistan target a separate attack up to thirty bodies are being reported by witnesses after a lone gunman opened fire the youth rally outside the capital police say they suspect the man arrested for the shooting is linked to the capital's earlier bombing one of the story few leaders agreeing on a second multi-million dollar bailout for greece sparked fears over you delving deeper into debt be a deal clinched at the summit in brussels prompted a major u.s. credit agency to say will downgrade the greek debt to default state. this is our team more now on the other big story dominating the headlines this week the phone hacking scandal well about losses guess about the affairs impact on both sides of the atlantic and for the murdoch media empire cross-talk as on the.

you can. follow and welcome the crossfire computer logo came into the murdoch empire as the phone hacking scandal in the u.k. engulfed more victims and politicians look for cover all eyes are on the future of news corp and its assets in the u.s. and beyond has the murdoch family finally outfoxed itself. across not the implications of the phone hacking scandal i'm joined by kevin zeese in baltimore he's a spokesperson and lawyer for the government accountability group protect our elections and author of an open letter to the f.b.i. and s.c.c. urging them to investigate murdoch's news corporation in the us in washington we have dave south than i he is communications director for free press and in london

we cross a toby young he's a journalist and author of how to lose friends and alienate people all right gentlemen crosstalk rules and in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want kevin if i can go to you first because of your open letter here i took a look at some of the what the laws and by laws of the f.c.c. and they basically their job is to make sure how the airwaves are used and they have to ensure that they're used by people of quote good character who serve the public interest and speak with candor so as murdoch's television empire at least have any place in the united states today in light of what we have heard coming out of the u.k. . well we're here you know the u.k. and also we're hearing some tidbits united states of phone hacking where you know the u.k. would make murdoch and his news corp violator of the foreign corrupt practices act which has criminal and civil penalties. basically doesn't allow u.s.

corporations to bribe foreign officials if murdoch is bribing foreign officials as seems to be the case they're talking about one hundred hundred thousand pounds or one hundred thousand dollars worth of bribes to the london police if that happened he followed the law and the f.c.c. should look at that and say that the twenty four stations he owns that cover forty percent of united states he should not be allowed a license of a news corp's license it should be revoked and a new new new station are sure to come into play so i don't think he has any place the united states and it's very important for. ok toby and i to go to you in london what do you think about what kevin had to say because we all know on this panel that these kind of practice is have been going on for a long time ok why the moral play now. well i think i'd. ask kevin to define what he means by bright a little more carefully because that sounds slightly as though he's overstating what some of rupert murdoch's british newspapers have been accused of doing

is paying the police the story for stories giving them tips in return for to parts and i think that is absolutely. within any tabloid newspaper culture in virtually any country in the world it's not a case i don't think anyone at this stage has accused news international the british subsidiary news corp of actually bribing police officers to corrupt charges against them or anything like that it's simply paying for information tipoffs ok is that is that is that they still thought foul of the corrupt practices act when you want to jump in there before we go today i think. yeah i think i would i think i would still would fall as a problem to the federal foreign corrupt practices act is essentially giving money to a foreign official in order to benefit their corporation in a probably and that's that's what a bribe is because they're not going to drop charges that i think although it's pretty interesting how those goes into this investigation started because of the

five didn't really proceed very far as we will find more about about their later but i do think that what the british were told be described would be conservative right ok dave it sounds to me we were playing go ahead toby go ahead and i got it is. suppose would or bernstein. paid deep throat for the information which led to the watergate exposure do you think that that means that katharine graham should go to jail well that's no that's not a foreign corrupt practices act but there does raise questions in fact it's become too common you know states media paying for stories ok to be so this is what i want to get you and i want to go to dave right now again you know these kind of practices are endemic in media in the english speaking world the western world ok so again you know why is this kind of moral outrage out there because you could make the claim and i'm not making it big murdoch is being turned into a scapegoat for what everybody else does including his organisation.

well i would i would say the singling out news corp and singling out murdoch in particular is shortsighted. i'm not going to speak to you know how many other news organizations and gauge are now right bribery and what kevin described. as a matter of law under the former foreign corrupt practices act is bribery and that's giving money to officials in order for it to entice them to do something or not do something within within their are thore and certainly giving over private information would fall under that. whether other organizations are engaged in that same same precise activity i think i think is you know it's i wouldn't be surprised at all if it were happening i can't i can't confirm or deny that it is but looking at news corp as an isolated incident or an isolated company that does this sort of thing i think is naive ok tobi i mean one of the things that we in the twenty first

century with the internet in everything our journalism tell me it's all very very competitive it's very very expensive and if we look at journalism is this simply a business then we should expect something like this to happen i mean we're you just have to get cutthroat and you got to go cut cut corners go around the law maybe even break the law but everybody seems to be doing it and i think that it's because journalism has become just a purely business model and that's how we've gotten to the point where we are now. while there may be something in it i think certainly the fact that there is so much competition in the pritish newspaper market particularly now that readers are declining on an almost daily basis that is going to lead to a lot of corner cutting but i think that one of the misnomers about this particular scandal is that it represents a failure of regulation now for many years the british political class who. wanted

to regulate the press much more heavily mainly because the press are constantly delving into their own wrongdoing they want to tame the press and my worry is that this scandal will be used as an excuse to regulate much more heavily the british press and it's actually not a failure of the existing self regulate the mechanism that we have in place at present it's really a failure of the police to enforce the law because bribing officials in this country is illegal and phone hacking is also illegal the problem is because of the collusion between some of news international newspapers and the metropolitan police force the metropolitan police have an enforced the law as rigorously as they should have done but it's not a failure of regulation it's a failure of law enforcement well you can do it seems to me at least in the u.k. we can talk about all of us live as events there develop their own you know the political class the media class and law enforcement it was just a kind of nice cozy relationship among all three of them ok all of them quote unquote benefited somehow. no question and they all are benefiting i think told me

that point is exactly right and it really was a failure of and could enforce one of the current laws the acts of bribery in beijing people's privacy through hacking phones are illegal here as well and i think that's a that's a really good point you know in the united states we have seen some cutting of corners you can call it maybe desperation as as revenue sink as readers think as viewers think the media seems to be going the wrong direction with more anonymous sources more paying people to speak things that were in the past really of limited use now are going to be commonplace i think where the transition period of our media we've gotten this we have this concentrated corporate media that has no credibility among the american public only twenty percent of the public believe the media tells the whole story and i think we're going to transition into a new form of democratized media and this will help get us there and dave this program is broadcast all around the world so can you tell my viewers outside of the

united states how this candle is being covered in the united states. not particularly well is the short answer there's been been very little in television coverage c.n.n. has done has done a bit of fox and fox news channel has done almost nothing frankly and in fact c.n.n. reported. on the fox news channel's media criticism program called fox news watch during a commercial break the the people on the on the program were discussing how they weren't going to discuss this story. so kevin makes a very spare barry strong and powerful point that concentration of media power in very few hands will lead to this sort of thing it's it's natural that a corporation is going to protect its own interests and news corp is an enormous company so no other no other news corp property is going to go to

terribly far out on a limb to to investigate this story. the wall street journal the bible of the wall street. is now owned by news corp or news corp and it is is not going to give shareholders in news corp a real story on on this and what it could mean to their to their bottom line and that's that's a real problem you don't get real news when when so much power is concentrated it will be you want to jump in there go ahead i just want to take you see you with the optimistic note kevin struck imagining. this the the fallout from the scandal would ultimately be good for democracy my worry is that if the fallout from this scandal he's regular in the press and much more rigorous enforcement of the existing rules

as they affect the press is that you'll end up with a very regulated print media which will then be able to. it's would be completely unregulated internet media and i'm not sure that if people become less reliant on the print media even on television eons and more reliance on what they're doing from the internet that that will be good for democracy can anyone reply that that's an interesting point well of course where we're actually seeing much less reliance on the print media the court the corporate media and the corporate television news people just don't trust anyone or i'm sure it's true you mention in britain it's happening it's happening here dramatic drops in confidence dramatic drops in viewership and readership will receive the same time is an increase in more democratic forms of media and it's not just the murdoch scandal that's going to add to this it's a whole series of events almost a perfect storm of events i would poke a hole in the end you release that point or a short break and after a short break we'll continue our discussion on murdoch and his empire stay with r.t. . if you. still.

think it's. to. discover is missing in the lead. communicate with the wild. and become free to me and see what nature can give you. the are. the losers the

soloist so. smug. mum. slumped taking the piss slowest so. the welcome back to cross talk you know about true mind you were talking about murdoch under siege. mum can be a celeb. ok kevin i'd like to go back to you

and maybe start with the question a question and we look at how competitive corporate media is today and this scandalous i demonstrating it is corruption a necessary ingredient to be competitive. well it will become even more. if the department of justice is not working aggressively to enforce the laws against iraq and investigate and i'm a big fan of freedom of press and don't want to see the government you know investigating the time of the free represses not give a license to break the law to tap phones to bribe officials those are illegal and they should be investigated as crimes and not be blocked by through the press and my saying earlier i see a great democratization of media occurring not just because a murdoch but the lack of credibility of the media murdoch having a million dollars plus the republican party and this n.b.c. and fox news be going to watch part of the news outlets just trusted a more they want to see more democratized media things like wiki leaks for example are also a pushing in that direction by making it easy for people to anonymously provide

information to the media through wiki leaks and then we can these publishers it and then all of us can become media outlets the social networks the blogs the web sites and we all become media reporters and we can all interpret the news based on documents that are anonymous the leaks that's a democratization immediate i think is a positive step i agree with toby that i don't want to see a media more regulated but i do want to see media you know of this forced to obey basic criminal and laws against invasion of privacy ok kilby do you think media is held to a lower bar when it comes to obeying the law because you know we we we have woodward and bernstein you know looking for the bad guys you know interested in journalism we don't like that and we we like seeing journalists going after the bad guys and that's part of this story here but our journalists are held to a lower bar and doing their job. i think that. there's been a certain journalists being granted a degree of latitude particularly tabloid journalism because mainly the people that

they are breaking the law to find out about are celebrities sportsman and so forth and there is a huge amount of public sympathy when a celebrity gets caught with his pants down so they think well if you had to have his phone to get that story so be it it doesn't cause public outrage there isn't a political outcry i think what there are two to two distinguishing characteristics about this scandal i mean it really exploded when it was discovered that when one anyway so news of the world reporters were accused of having listened into the voice mails of a missing girl who turned out to be dead and then deleted those voice mails after listening to them thereby destroying potential evidence in an ongoing criminal investigation that caused public outcry isn't that bad that that triggered this this murder copulates as we call it here the other reason i think is the reason murdoch in particular is being targeted not just because it's journalists at his newspapers were accused of wrongdoing it's also fueled by political analysts he's generally thought to be

a conservative and in the liberal left media in particular the guardian almost liberal newspaper has really been doggedly pursuing this story now everyone knew that these kind of things were going on not just on murdoch's papers but on all the tabloids and no one did in the last government didn't do anything about it i think that's partly because rupert murdoch threw his weight behind the loss to labor prime minister it was only when he switched support to the conservative party that the labor party and the liberal left media proclaim up on their high horse about these wrongdoings ok if i go to you dave i mean if it's all about politics in the u.k. and i accept that is it all about fear in the united states because the guys have pointed out to me it's not covered very much in the united states or you know shareholders are afraid of people are afraid of getting on murdoch's toes because they don't know which way it's going to go in the us. yeah i would i would agree with toby the there is quite a bit of far too cozy relationship between the media in general and and

politicians and in news corp's case in particular fox news channel is widely regarded fairly or unfairly as is the organ of the republican party and i mean if you just look at look at who there are on air personalities personalities have been it's loaded with either current or potential presidential candidates from the republican party so it's no secret that fox news channel tends to favor a conservative point of view and if you're a politician on the right you certainly want to curry favor and if you're a politician on the on the left you have to be afraid of that attack machine coming after you i mean they've claimed a number of scalps in the pull in the political establishment here and nobody wants to put his or her neck too far out on that line. kevin if i can go to you he has beat murdoch been successful because of corrupt business practices because we did a program on this subject last week and we had a gentleman that was from the left but actually praised murdoch for his business

model but maybe that business model was successful because of these practices. oh yeah before this scandal broke you say it was aggressive business practices we know yet how aggressive the united states do they as they're doing the u.k. cross the line of criminal behavior and if they are then i think his business model will not be seen as one that's worth worth copying and i gree with david that we do have this kind of cozy relationship between politicians and media united states in fact politicians need the media to get elected and need appear on the air to get elected they pay the media tens of millions of dollars in advertising revenue they raise money from billionaires and argue that it's a symbiotic relationship between big business big media and the two big corporate ease and for she was led to as a total corruption of us to mark r.c. we no longer our politics the reason the people's interests we are parties are represented big business interests whether they're democrats or republicans we are

politicians that kowtow to the media and play the twenty four hour media cycle we really don't care and i think that's one reason why you're seeing readership and viewership dropping people see this corrupt symbiotic relationship as undermining really any kind of any any functional government we have a dysfunctional government that can't be on health care can't deal with energy can't deal with climate we can't deal with any is issues it's a it's a disgrace. go ahead joe i was going to ask you go ahead joe you go first go ahead but. i wouldn't ask you that you currently have a dysfunctional government in the united states we're still waiting for you to result in the debt ceiling we're very worried about that at the moment in europe i think one thing i would say in favor of one aspect of rupert murdoch's business model is that quite often cross subsidy goes on so he uses the profits from the more profitable possumus business to subsidize the less profitable parts in the u.k. for instance the news of the world and the sun that's the best selling tabloid owned by news international he's the profits for most papers i used to keep afloat and

use paper called the times which is one of the oldest and most respected newspapers in this country. rupert murdoch does that i think partly because of the political influence that having a respectable serious global use that it gives him but also i think because it is a lot of newspapers you can see that in new york i mean he keeps the new york post afloat it loses tens of millions of dollars a year i don't know that much political clout but he just clearly loves. for blood it's in his family and i think my worry is that if murdoch pulls out of the u.k. the times for one is going to close gave way why can't we go back to the issue of regulation why can't there be regulations in separate countries where you can own one newspaper or a new or a television station or a television station what a magazine way why can't it be industry regulated from an ownership point of view where you don't have someone like murdoch that is so are powerful particularly in the u.k. in the united states we could avoid something like this upfront you know if you

want to be in t.v. good be in t.v. but don't be in print. well that's to be directly that is the case yeah that is the case and that's how that's how it was before rupert murdoch decided that he wanted to own t.v. stations and newspapers in the same in the same cities and through a very aggressive lobbying campaign was able to get an exception for that but now it's become the rule television stations and newspapers owned in the same or owned by the same company in the same cities lead to two very troubling situations because. american democracy is founded on the principle that the marketplace of ideas will lead to better democracy and if you have a newspaper and now with with. several shared service agreements you can have the same company operating to television stations in the same city where it owns a newspaper and in a smaller town there might be no competing newspaper there might be no competing

television stations so in that sort of situation you've got one company. dominating and monopolizing the entire tape you're not going to get opposing points of view free press is an organization that is founded on the idea that loosening media consolidation and the corporate grip on media democratizing it through very various means including internet as kevin discussed and through better public media and through more diverse ownership will lead to better democracy because people will look at opposing sides and you know just by this i think it's easy ok if you want your time you want to the social good the public good and that's almost never mentioned or seen in media today because it's just one big business and it's very competitive and very lucrative kevin what about that i mean his journalism really does detach itself from its roots of serving the public good. you know it has and i think that's also part of the cause religion media and politicians used to be that

we consider the year waves radio and t.v. the public airwaves and public as you read early in the first question of the f.c.c. these commission include a public interest that's almost disappeared even as the f.c.c. has mission you don't really hear much about anymore and we don't even call the public there is only now we call the commercial media and that's been a major mistake and i hope that this scandal and the declining revenues and viewers and readers of commercial media. are starting to happen there we start to move back toward a public interest perspective that these are public airwaves and start to require the me to do much more for the public good including giving everyone every kelly who gets to tell me the last word toby got the last word of the program go ahead i think the problem with. the state effectively playing a greater role in the media whether it's from subsidy or through regulation through requiring the media to be more balanced and so forth and the public good is that

that just becomes another mechanism for the state to control what's printed in the media but maybe they just cut out the middleman they don't have to curry favor with rupert murdoch anymore they can just do it directly and i'm not sure that's a preferable system ok dave i'm going to give you the last last word go ahead what do you think. ok well you know i have i have i am a former journalist i feel better now but what i have what i have seen too much of when i was in the business and since i got out of the business is. too much of it depends on access you're not going to to a. completely run out of time many thanks so my guess would be in london baltimore and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember across topples. keep.

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